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How Much Do Designers Get Paid with Carole Neal

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Ever wondered how much money you can make as a designer? What are artists really getting paid?

How much money can you make in the creative world? No matter what career you’re aiming for—animation, VFX, UX—it can be hard to find a direct answer. It depends on your experience, your skillset, the “rarity” of your abilities…but what matters to you is the bottom line. So how can you find out the real dollar value of your work?

It’s easy to feel stressed out by finances, especially if you don’t have a clear picture. That’s why we reached out to Carole Neal, the Marketing Director at Aquent. If you’re unfamiliar, Aquent is a talent and staffing firm for artists and creatives that recently released 2022 salary reports for the US, UK, Germany and Australian markets. What they found, to put it super lightly, was pretty darn interesting. As in “we just recorded a whole podcast about it” interesting. 

Carole was kind enough to join us to discuss the state of hiring and salaries in creative fields, and to talk about what she's seen work in terms of artists being able to earn more. If you're a professional creative, or hope to be one, don’t miss this conversation. Pour yourself another cup of joe, grab the flakiest croissant in existence, and let’s talk finances. 

How Much Do Designers Get Paid with Carole Neal

Show Notes

Artists

Carole Neal

Resources

Aquent
Aquent Salary Guide US

Aquent Salary Guide UK

Aquent Salary Guide Australia

Aquent Salary Guide Germany

Aquent Check Salary Tool

Aquent Gymnasium

LinkedIn Learning

Udemy

Coursera

Transcript

Joey Korenman: (00:40)

How much money can you make in the creative world? It's surprisingly hard to get a good answer to that question. Isn't it? It depends on so many factors, how much experience you have, what skills you've got, where you live, how rare your skillset is. And a lot of other factors to help us wrap our arms around this tricky question. We reached out to Carole Neal marketing director at Aquent, a talent staffing firm for artists and creatives of all types. Aquent recently released 2022 salary reports for the US, UK, Germany and Australian markets. All of which can be downloaded on the show notes page for this episode, by the way. And there were some really interesting insights in these reports. Carol was kind enough to join us, to discuss a state of hiring and salaries in creative fields like design and animation. And to talk about what she's seen work in terms of artists being able to earn more, if you're a professional, creative or hope to be one, listen on friend. So let's hear from Carole right after we hear from one of our amazing School of Motion alumni.

Padon Murdock: (01:43)

School of motion offered me the education I needed to dive into the animation and motion graphics world before taking their courses. I was kind of intimidated by the technical nature of animation and after taking their VFX for Motion course and their Advanced Motion Methods course, I felt myself level up not only in what I was able to offer my clients, but also in the types of personal work I would do. It gave me the information I needed to continue to improve and do things that I never really thought that I would be able to do. My name's Padon Murdock. And I'm a School of Motion alumni.

Joey Korenman: (02:24)

Carol. It is very nice to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on the School of Motion podcast. We have a lot to talk about, but I just wanna say thank you for your time. This is gonna be awesome.

Carole Neal: (02:32)

Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. This is gonna be fun.

Joey Korenman: (02:35)

Awesome. Well, I, I think the first thing that we should do is just kinda let all of the listeners know about the company that you work for Aquent. You know, I, I found you guys on LinkedIn. We were looking for somebody that could come and talk about, you know, the state of salaries in the design industry. And I had this LinkedIn connection who knew you, and that's sort of how I found you guys, but I actually don't know much about the company. So maybe you can give us some background and talk about what Aquent does.

Carole Neal: (03:01)

Sure, sure, sure. So, uh, Aquent is a global workforce solutions company, right? So we like to say we help organizations find, grow and support their most valuable resource people. So we've been around for more than 30 years and we actually invented the creative and marketing staffing specialty. Um, we're one of the largest in the world in that area. And so what that means in like day to day terms is, you know, if you are an organization that say needs a website designer for a specific project, we can provide that talent to help support you. Maybe you need somebody to you fill in for three months because someone's on, you know, family leave or whatever it might be. We can provide that short term resource to help you. And then maybe you're recruiting for a director of marketing or a more senior level role. We can provide that as well.

Carole Neal: (03:55)

So we really specifically focus in the marketing creative and design space, um, helping a place talent in those areas with our clients, as well as providing our client solutions that help them, you know, work more effectively and efficiently, whether it's like a project management software like RoboHead, or it could be, um, another solution where we, uh, like a payroll solution where we actually take on your talent in w two year talent for a particular project or for a particular period of time. So that's really what we do been around again for more than 30 years. And it's kind of like a family. So it's, it's a great organization to work for. And one of the other things that we do that I particularly love is that we provide our talent of benefits. So oftentimes when you are working as a freelancer or in the gig economy, one of the biggest challenges is that you don't have benefits. And so aqui provides comprehensive benefits for our talent. As long as you're working 20 hours a week, you can, are eligible to participate in our benefits plan, which is, you know, a nice to have, uh, cuz oftentimes not having benefits, I think keeps people out of the workforce.

Joey Korenman: (05:07)

Yeah. It's, it's one of the things that, you know, it's funny cuz we have a, a very international audience and a lot of times when I'm talking to people who are not in the us and you know, in a country where the healthcare system isn't as awful as ours is, it's funny, you know, like it always reminds me that, you know, that's kind of a big blocker for people, for sure. Shifting careers and, and things like that. So when you're describing the way Aquent works, you know, we've had people on this podcast before who act almost like talent brokers in our industry, in the, in the world of design and animation, but there's a lot of different models for that. So one that I think a lot of our list will be familiar with is the idea of having a rep that's, you know, essentially going out and doing sales for you as an artist. But what you're talking about, it almost sounds more like a talent agency or something like that. So yeah. Talk about that a little bit.

Carole Neal: (05:56)

Yeah. So I'll put it in layman's terms. It's more of like a staffing and recruiting agency, right? Yeah. So while we are not specifically going out and so to speak, like being like a, a agent or a manager and wrapping one particular client, you know, one particular talent all the time, we do take jobs. We have jobs that our clients have asked us, you know, can you find me someone that has animation skills? Is it video editor has UX design background, et cetera. And so we are filling those roles for clients and those roles can be temporary. They can be, uh, what you call temp to perm, meaning like you start and you, you work in that role for three months and if everything works out, then they'll hire you full-time or it can be a permanent full-time position, you know? So you could range anywhere from a couple hours a week to full-time work.

Carole Neal: (06:48)

And the beauty of it is that you have the choice in terms of what type of role suits you. So if you go to our website and you go under talent, undefined opportunities, you'll see the listing of all the different types of roles that we're trying to fill. They have a variety of different creative and marketing specialties. But also as I mentioned, it could be something where someone's like, Hey, I just need someone for 20 hours a week or where someone's like, I need someone for three months cuz someone's on family leave or I'm with looking for a full-time person. So what I love about that is I think it gives talent, the opportunity to make those choices that work for you, right? Because you might be in a situation where you won a full-time gig, but you also might be in a situation where it's your side hustle. You only wanna do 10 hours a week or uh, you know, you have something else go going on. So I think it allows talent to have the flexibility to do that.

Joey Korenman: (07:42)

Yeah. That's great too. So let's talk a little bit about the state of the job market right now. And you know, I I'm, I've been very narrowly focused over the last few years on sort of the, I I guess really to, to put a big umbrella around it, I'd say video, right? It's like animation and, and that can include things that show up on TV on the web, on social media. But typically it's like designed and animated and there's been this absolute explosion of the need for that. And especially during the pandemic where, uh, from my perspective, at least in that narrow niche of design, there are just not nearly an enough artists to fill all the roles that are out there. So it seems to be very much a seller's market and you know, Aquent sort of talent base is much broader. And, and you know, you're, you're not just dealing with design, you're dealing with marketing and, and even sort of project management. So what's the state of the industry in terms of the amount of work out there, the amount of people looking for talent and then the amount available talent, like is there an imbalance how's that working right now?

Carole Neal: (08:44)

It's a very talent driven market, right? I think you just called it a seller's market, the seller being the, the talent in that example. So I think if you are a talent, it is, you know, it's a great time to look for opportunities, explore new opportunities. I think all of us have heard about the great resignation where people, you know, are leaving jobs and, and I think in many ways, you know, while we call it the great resignation, you know, perhaps it's more the great reflection, right? I think the pandemic has caused us all to kind of take a step back and think about what matters to us, how are we working? Are we, do we love what we do are we are our values aligned with our company's values, you know? And as we talk about going back to normal, you can't unsee and what we've seen and experience these past three years.

Carole Neal: (09:33)

And so it is, you know, so that's caused a lot of people to leave existing jobs, you know, and also there's a lot of people that don't want to go back into the office, right. They've had the experience of working remotely and say, I like this and I, I don't wanna go back into the office anymore. So there are a lot of organizations that are looking for talent. So if you have of that skillset, particularly in video animation, and I think in the marketing and design industry, it is a great time. There's a lot of demand. And part of that is because we've had, I would say people's viewing habits have increased over the past two years in terms of the amount of content that they're consuming. We know that video, uh, tends to engage audiences probably almost two times, if not more than just a static image or just text. So, you know, it is the way that marketing is moving, right? Every marketer is thinking about how do I bring more video content onto my different platforms, whether it's social media, whether it's email, whether it's the web, et cetera. So it is really a great time to be in that space and to, to be looking, I think there's lots of opportunities.

Joey Korenman: (10:49)

Yeah. I mean, that just echoes what, what we've seen at School of Motion. So as far as like the actual, um, mechanics of staffing, creative jobs, you know, like I, I have a lot of experience hiring an artist for a role at, you know, the studio I used to run or recommending talent to people or hiring people at school of motion. But obviously at Aquent, I mean there must be, you know, thousands and thousands of placements happening every year. And so I'm sure that you've learned a lot about what it takes to have a successful placement with an artist or just anyone in the creative space going into a company, um, and having that be a wins. I'm curious, uh, if there's anything surprising that you've seen over the years or, or just sort of rules of thumb that tell you this type of artist is gonna work great in this type of company.

Carole Neal: (11:36)

Yeah. So know it was interesting when I, um, I actually reached out to our recruiters and asked them, you know, Hey, what are your thoughts about this to, to get some feedback because I'm not direct recruiting in my role as, you know, director of marketing. But I think what they shared are just some great tips for people in general. One was be able to clearly articulate the value and the story, right. Be able to story, tell and show how your contribution made a difference to the business. Right? So versus saying, Hey, I designed this great video. It might be like, I designed this great video that led to X number of leads and, you know, whatever, being able to give some specifics now, certainly you may not have that in every single situation, but even just being able to say, I designed this great video that got, you know, 3000 views on LinkedIn or something like that.

Carole Neal: (12:32)

So being able to kind of link your work to the results is important. Being able to story tell in general. So again, I'm gonna stay a little bit with the, the video editor that is a huge element of storytelling. So being able to really have that story flow through the video and have the audience be able to connect with it, have it be able to resonate with them. The second tip is certainly have a great portfolio, right? Have a website or somewhere where you can showcase your work so that people can look at examples of your work. If you don't have that on LinkedIn, you certainly, there are opportunities to put that on LinkedIn on your profile page, where you can link to pieces of work that you've done, but have a great portfolio. And then one of the, the other tips that they gave that I thought was great was really just that adaptability, being able to pivot, being able to go with the flow, being able to how often have many of us, you know, a job.

Carole Neal: (13:35)

And then when you get there, it's a little bit different than what you thought or something changes, right? No one expected COVID. So I don't care what your job description was to change when COVID happened. Correct. You know, so being able to do that, be flexible and adaptable. And, um, I think the last piece that they highlighted, what I thought was great was, you know, what about you is unique. If you are someone who has, I'm making this up, you know, video editing skills, but you can also, you're also a writer and can write the story or you, you know, whatever your, whatever your, your secret sauce is, whatever your superpower is, you know, make sure that you highlight that and bring that forward. What makes you unique? So that, and be able to articulate that obviously as you're interviewing so that people really can get a good sense of, of who you are.

Joey Korenman: (14:28)

Yeah. I wanted to call out and I love that you brought this up, the, the idea that especially junior creatives, you know, when they first get into the industry, the number one concern is typically I wanna make cool stuff. I wanna make things that are pretty, if I'm a designer, right. And it's easy to forget that there's a, there's a reason you're doing that. You know, you're not just doing it to create artwork. There's a, there's a context and there's a result that someone is after. And that's why they've asked you to do this. And I think demonstrating an understanding of where your work sits in the greater context of any business makes you way more valuable than just someone that, you know, can design beautiful stuff. For sure. And so even at the scale of, of Aquent, I mean, that's cool that that is important because, um, you know, I think it's, it's easy to imagine, uh, you know, this giant machine, that's just sort of funneling thousands of artists around, you know, how, how much sort of one on one is involved in the process when, uh, when Aquent is, is placing people.

Carole Neal: (15:26)

Yeah. I think there's a lot. So, you know, when you say giant machine, I mean yes, but no, because what we're doing is, you know, the jobs are posted and we're asking you to the best way to, I think get placed is to apply to a specific job, right? So you see a job video editor at blah, blah, blah, go ahead and apply to that job. Now, as you can imagine, we get a lot of applications, but you know, if it's felt that your, you have a good skillset, you have a good background, it meets the client's needs. The recruiter will reach out to you and contact you to have a conversation and learn a little bit more about you. And that's when they're asking you, Hey, do you have an example of your portfolio? That's when it is your opportunity to say, Hey, wanna share what makes me unique? You know, what makes me a little bit different? And I think sometimes people, they forget to really be able to bring all that forward, you know, and they, they think it's very clear in their resume and sometimes it's not, you know, so just take a moment and think about what makes you unique, what it makes you special and be able to try articulate that.

Joey Korenman: (16:35)

I love that. So I am on Aquent's website right now and, uh,

Carole Neal: (16:40)

The test

Joey Korenman: (16:40)

And I, I recommend everyone listening should, should go. And, and just look, because this is, um, the, the scale of the industry becomes apparent when you do things like this, you go to, uh, talent and then, uh, find opportunities. And there are, uh, I think 57 pages of jobs. And one thing that's really fascinating is that most of them have this tag on them that says remote.

Carole Neal: (17:03)

Yes.

Joey Korenman: (17:04)

And so I wanna talk about that, cuz that's obviously been, been a huge shift over the last two years and you know, one, one of the, the coolest things, like when we got in into was you in your email signature, you had a link to a salary guide that they just put out and, uh, we're gonna link to it in the show notes, everyone go download it. It is very comprehensive. It's also beautifully designed by the way.

Carole Neal: (17:25)

It's amazing. Oh, thank you. It looks

Joey Korenman: (17:26)

Really

Carole Neal: (17:27)

Great. Our creative designer, Andrew. No, he did a great job.

Joey Korenman: (17:30)

Yeah, it, look, it looks awesome. The information is great. And there's this quote on page two of it. I'm just gonna read a, a portion of it. And then I I'd like to kind of get your take on, on really what this means. So this is what it says. It's clear. The pandemic has forever changed the way we get work done headquarters in New York, but your UX lead is in Charlotte. No problem. Midnight in Milwaukee, someone's working flex hours and loving it. This is the future companies that offer a variety of work models fully on site, fully remote and hybrid can build great teams, regardless of geography. That's a big deal, you know, and, and I we've been remote at School of Motion, uh, since the beginning, you know, so I mean, not for that long, maybe like seven, eight years, but you know, it used to be really unique and it was actually an advantage when we were hiring people that we were remote and now everybody's remote. Yeah. So what is, so talk about that, like what, I mean, there's some obvious effects of this, but what have you seen?

Carole Neal: (18:27)

Yeah. So I think, you know, COVID right.

Joey Korenman: (18:31)

Yeah. Seriously. Right. COVID am I right? Good

Carole Neal: (18:33)

And bad. You know, good old COVID I think COVID, you know, obviously forced all of us to work remote in some capacity for some period of time. I think many organizations realized when they did that, that Hmm. You know what productivity is still good. People are getting our work done. We're still able to collaborate because you know, now we have all these tools, Google Hangouts, and zoom and whatever it might be. And so, you know, we've seen that there is, there's certainly more of a drive towards remote. So we did this survey, we do this talent insight survey every year. And when we did it last year, what was really interesting is 98% of the respondents said that they want to work remote in some capacity. So with people, not everybody wants to work remote all the time, but there was probably almost, you know, 40 plus percent.

Carole Neal: (19:28)

I don't have the numbers in front of me that wanted to, to work remote all the time. There was a portion of people that wanted to work hybrid. Meaning I go into the office a couple of days. I work remote a couple of days. And so there, the preference there was to go into the office two days a week. But at the end of the day, 98% of the people wanted to work remote and some could. So to me that says remote is here to stay. I think one of the benefits or many of the benefits of remote is one. It allows you to have what some organizations call follow the sun, right? Meaning that there's a time difference east coast, you know, and west coast. So follow the sun allows you to have someone give you coverage for a longer period of your business day, because you could have, you know, the start of your day be covered by an employee in the east coast and the end of your day, they employ on the west coast.

Carole Neal: (20:23)

So as opposed to eight business hours, you have 11, almost 12, right? In terms of coverage, it allows to have a more, more diverse talent pool because perhaps you're in a location that is one, you know, demographic, it allows you to tap into other areas where you can reach out to other UX designers or, or other people that are different gender, different ethnicity, or any of the other multiple dimensions of diversity. So, and I think it allows, you know, I know we're gonna talk about this a little bit too, but it allows employers to think about cost, right. And how are they managing their cost with the different, you know, I see different cost of living, et cetera, but I, I think remote is here to stay. And I think that's a plus for talent because it allows you to now work for organizations that may have been off the table before you wanna work for Google. Great. Now you have an opportunity to,

Joey Korenman: (21:22)

Yeah. You said so many good things in there. So let's talk about the diversity thing for minute, because that that's something that it wasn't obvious to me that that would be such a big advantage, uh, of going fully remote or having more companies go fully remote because you know, I've worked in my career. I was, I, I spent most of my career in Boston. Right. Which is a super diverse city and there's a lot of different industries there. You know, all the agencies I worked with and stuff like that, it tended to have all kinds of different people. But then I've talked to people who spent a lot of their career in say Silicon valley. And, um, I have never worked there and I haven't lived there, but a, a lot of people have told me that it's a little more monolithic there, I guess, is a way to put it. Um, and, and so even, you know, and, and if the, if it, if you're required to be in person have to go live there. And so sort of like the prevailing culture, there is mostly where your hiring pool comes from. Right. And so maybe you could talk a little bit about, like, what is, have you seen companies have an easier time of having a talent pool now that doesn't all look or act or think the same is that actually been the result of having more of a remote global call? True.

Carole Neal: (22:29)

I think it can be the result. Yeah. You know, it's up to the organization to make that choice to expand beyond. And, and I really wanna hone in on that. Diversity has multiple dimensions. So often we think about race and gender, but there's also neurodiversity. There's also veteran status. There's disability. There's, there's all different sorts of things, right. That could be reflective of diversity. So if you are in an area that is, you know, has a culture that tends to be very much the same, being able to pluck remote talent and work with remote talent in other area is allows you to expand your pool. You know, so it, what's interesting is one of the things we saw was that there was a lot of growth in some of the areas in the Midwest, or, you know what I mean, like again, think about how there have been areas in the, throughout the country that have now started to see a explosive growth and that have actually been able to grow faster during COVID because stuff was online versus, you know, before, when everything was in person.

Carole Neal: (23:40)

So I think being able to expand into remote and tap into remote talent pools allows you to do that. Right? You can find someone in Baltimore, for example, you know, you can find somebody in Florida or whatever, you can go to these other types of areas that are more diverse and then start to bring that talent into your or organization and create a more diverse talent pool. And, and one of the things we know is that when you, when you have diversity businesses perform better, they have better business outcomes from diversity because you don't have everybody thinking the same and someone's going, wait a minute, Hey, that doesn't really work. Or here's how, you know, here's how another culture or, or how somebody else might want to use this. And that might be something that really literally wasn't even considered before.

Joey Korenman: (24:34)

Exactly. I love it. I think another thing that you pointed out was that, you know, if you live in the Midwest prior to COVID it, you know, having Google hire, you might mean you have to move out to, to the west coast or, you know, over to, to the east coast where they have some offices too. And now that is just not the case. Like I, uh, I know someone who works for Google full time and lives in, uh, Atlanta and just works sort of remotely. And that's really cool. And so I think that that does open up opportunities for artists and creatives, but doesn't it also make it more to get those jobs because Google also now can hire anybody they want. And frankly, you know, we've been kind of constraining this conversation a little bit to the us, but that's not even really a constrain either, you know, Google can hire anybody anywhere. So does it, from the artist's perspective, do you think the benefits of now you've got global opportunity, but also you've out global competition and where does that really net out in your opinion?

Carole Neal: (25:29)

Yeah, that's a good question. I, I think you, you do have both, right. You have global opportunity global competition, but I think that's why it becomes then even more critical that you are able to articulate what your secret sauce is. What's special about you. What are you bring me to the table that is unique? You know, one of our recruiters mentioned a, an acronym called star and I, and I actually used it myself when I was interviewing, but it stands for, you know, kinda like the situation, the, the tactics, that action and the result. And so, as opposed to saying, I described a great website, you, I, I built a great website, you know, you would wanna talk about the situation, but, you know, whatever the company had a new product launch, and I designed a website to support that, you know, what were the tactics that you used?

Carole Neal: (26:20)

What was the, you know, what was the action, um, that came out of that. And then what were the results, you know, and as a result, the product launched and know we had more sales than we ever had. I'm making all of this stuff up, but rather than saying, I've built a great website. You know, I think that's really when, because of this competition that you really need to be able to articulate what you bring to the table and why it's different and, and why it's unique. And then I also encourage people to, you know, really network when you apply for a role to go onto LinkedIn and do a search and see who else do I know that's at that company? You know, how can I find out more about that company? You know, said that you're not sending in a resume or cover letter that says, you know, scratch out Google and put in, right, right.

Joey Korenman: (27:11)

To whom it made concern to whom

Carole Neal: (27:13)

It made concern. Right. But that you've, you know, you've done some research and that you've tried to connect with people that might be there to learn more, listen to their webinars, go on their website. What I, it might be all, those are things that can, you can start to build into and better understand why you might be a great fit for that role. And then articulate that.

Joey Korenman: (27:33)

Yeah. That, I mean, that's really interesting cuz you know, I always, I, I talk a lot about freelancing cuz I used to be a freelancer and, and so I, I try to help people learn how to get work as a free answer. And really it all comes down to building relationships. It really that's, that's the secret, right? Your portfolio is the table stakes, but yeah. You know. Yeah. Right. And, but even when you're working with a recruiter, it sounds like the relationship and the rapport that you can build with the recruiter is also important.

Carole Neal: (27:59)

Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, you're building a rapport with the recruiter, but I think I love what you said. Right? It all comes down to relationships. You're building a rapport with a recruiter. That's one aspect of a relationship, but then you're gonna at some point interview with a client, right. So you need to have the ability to build a rapport with a client. Let's say all that goes swimming and you get the job. You need to still be able to build a rapport with the people that you are working with on the day to day to get work done. And how do you handle those fire drills and changes and scope and all those other kind of things. So I think relationships is, is really just so critical. And I sometimes think people underestimate that like, yes, your work speaks for itself. But you know, I think we've all had experiences when you've worked with someone that's kind of difficult to work with.

Carole Neal: (28:49)

Yeah. Even though they may have great work, you know, you may not necessarily wanna work with them. And so I, I think, you know, that be, is a big piece of it. Right. Is how do you articulate, you know, your strengths, your what's unique about you showcase your portfolio. You know, you should have a website that really showcases the stuff that you do. And I think sometimes people get stuck on, well, I did this great thing, but it wasn't with a job. You know what I mean? It was with a nonprofit or it's on my own or whatever, that's still part of your work. Right? Yeah. So you can showcase everything that you do and the scope of what you do and you, you never know what might appeal to somebody else, you know? So I think, you know, put it out there and, you know, be authentic, be you right. You don't want to be trying to be something that you're not.

Joey Korenman: (29:43)

Yeah. You gotta let that freak flag fly. You really do. Especially in like a creative industry. I mean, it, it actually can be very helpful to stand out and, you know, talk about how you're covered in tattoos or that you're, you know, really into like some obscure like genre of music or something. I think a lot of, uh, a lot of creative of employers really think that that that's cool and it, and it does help you stand out, you know, in a stack of resumes. I wanna talk about following the sun a little bit and uh, and, and get into something that, to be honest, I've been trying to figure out how I feel about it, to be honest, it's, it's a really kind of tricky topic. And it's this idea that now that the talent pool is global, right. You know, if let, I'm trying to hire someone to make thumbnail designs for content, for school of motion.

Joey Korenman: (30:26)

While I could hire someone who has been working at, you know, Facebook, some really high end designer illustrator with incredible work, I cannot afford them. Right. I can't match what Facebook is paying them. However, there's also designers, you know, in, in places like, uh, you know, Bali and Poland and Croatia and, and um, and in south America where the cost of living is much lower, the talent is just as good, right. There's really like not a difference. And so I can get much more for my money. And so, but it feels even just saying that yeah, feels kind of gross and I'm not. And, and, and so I'm, you know, I'm generally a pragmatist, right. And, and like when running a business, you have to be, but also there's this weird sort of moral coding over the whole thing that I'm not sure how I feel about it. And I'm curious, you know, cuz I'm sure this is something that comes up in your line of work, you know, how do you approach that?

Carole Neal: (31:20)

Yeah. I, you know, I think, uh, you raise a great, a great point. I think it's all like what, what is the obligation you as a business owner, as a business has. Right. And I think at the end of the day, anyone that is working for you is entitled to fair and, and living wage. And you know, I, I think that as you look at that, that may mean different things for different people. And it's certainly not for me to, to speak on that for, you know, any organization or, or even for Aquent. Honestly, I think, you know, you just have to, to look at what makes sense. I mean, so for example, I'm gonna give like an extreme example, you know, if the, the person, you know, that you're hiring outside of the us, you're able to pay them $2 versus $200. Like I don't know that that's reasonable.

Carole Neal: (32:12)

Right. So do you find, you know, why you may not be able to afford the $200 an hour that Facebook was, you know, that you'd have to pay someone for Facebook? You know, you certainly, um, can afford more it than $2 an hour. And so, you know, I think it becomes on the business and the business owner to, to try to find something that makes sense. And, and that is more reasonable. Yeah. Because if the skillset is similar, you know, and so again, no disrespect to Facebook or anybody in my extreme example, I'm just, you are making up numbers and, and making up examples to, to really just draw a point. But I think that's, you know, something we all have to think about as we move forward, right? How do you equity equity? How do you have, you know, pay equity and, and a fair and equitable situation for all your employees.

Carole Neal: (33:06)

And that might mean, and that's one of the things I think the salary guy empowers talent to do as well as we have another tool called check salary that you can see, am I getting paid fairly for the work that I'm doing? If I'm a UX designer or three years experience, and someone is offering me X, is that fair? You know, right. We see women are historically paid, less people of color are historically paid less. So one of the benefits of this guide is, you know, you can look as talent, I, and find out what is the pay so that, um, and it is north America and Canada. So I know you mentioned you have an international audience, but it is north America and Canada, this particular one, but you know, you can look and see what you are being paid and what's fair for the role, what other people are being paid so that you have an opportunity to have that discussion negotiation.

Joey Korenman: (34:01)

Yeah. I think that this is something that it's just gonna take a few decades, honestly, to, to kind of play out in. And what I would predict is that the global nature of the talent pool, now it will eventually sort of equalize things a little bit, you know, there's always gonna be inequality in cost of living. I think, you know, like it's just gonna cost more to live in London than it does, you know, to live in, you know, rural Brazil or something like that. But what does that mean for two artists doing the exact same thing and what is the, yeah. And it's it it's, to me, it's a really interesting question. And, and I, I, I just need to like find the right framework to approach it. I don't of it yet, but cuz I, I do, I do feel this moral obligation to do the right thing for sure.

Joey Korenman: (34:46)

But you know, for example, like I've, I've talked to a lot of business owners that, you know, they have assistance, right. That's a thing. And there was this trend and I think it might still be going on where there's companies, they spring up and they're based out of the Philippines and in the Philippines a full whole time like good salary from what I've heard is $500 us per month for that, uh, you can actually get someone to work 40 hours a week for you and oh goodness, that feels weird. Right? Like I've never done that. And, but it, but it feels weird, but also like I've heard like that from the perspective of the person being paid the $500, this has changed their life. This is amazing to them.

Carole Neal: (35:24)

Yeah. But

Joey Korenman: (35:24)

So I don't know what to do with that. Right. It's

Carole Neal: (35:26)

Yeah. I feel like this could go in a whole, we could do a whole different thing for that. Um,

Joey Korenman: (35:31)

I know, because

Carole Neal: (35:32)

I feel like at the end of the day, that's still an equity just because, right. Just because someone gave you you're hungry and someone gave you, you know, a bowl of soup and that quote unquote satisfies your hunger because you haven't eaten for three days does not mean that that's a reasonable nutritious meal. You know what I mean? And so, you know, again, I, I know now I, I I think, and a lot about equity and what's equitable and what, what would you pay someone to do to do that work and right. You know, $500 a week while that may be a good salary, so to speak, is that equitable? Is that fair? Is that, you know, what is that on a per hour be? I mean, goodness gracious, you know? Right. So, yeah, but who I feel like that's another day we can do all. Yeah, well

Joey Korenman: (36:24)

That that's that's round too. That's right. So we'll have, we'll have to put a pin in that. That's a tricky one. That's a tricky one for sure.

Carole Neal: (36:29)

Yeah. I'm just gonna lead lead with equity lead with fairness lead with, um, you know, do the right

Joey Korenman: (36:34)

Thing. Put your heart in the right place. Yeah. Okay. So let's start to talking about some, some actual stuff re related to salaries. And I know that this is also complicated because right now, uh, you know, we're recording this in 2022 in March and, you know, inflation is in the news and so prices are going up and, and there's a war happening. And so gas prices are spiking and things like this. So I know that salaries can be somewhat tied to that, but also they're really, I think, tied to supply and demand. And so sort of, maybe I can just sort of leave that there and let you speak broadly about the state of designer and creative salaries. Have they been going up over the last few years? Have they been going down? Have they been staying the same and, and what, why do you think that is?

Carole Neal: (37:22)

Yeah, so I think that's a great question. So one of the things I wanna point out is that the salary guide, we, it's actually really interesting. One of the unique things that we do is we provide salaries by role and, but we show those salaries by role based off of, of geography. We do a comparison year over year. We actually show the difference for a couple key roles between, um, men and women. And then we also show the difference for a couple key roles for, um, what people of color paid compared to their white counterparts. So for design salaries, what we've seen in general is that they have been up about two to 5% over the last year. So, you know, 20, 20 to 2021 the year prior, what's interesting is we thought that there was gonna be a big drop in salaries, but these, for the most part stayed about the same.

Carole Neal: (38:17)

So, you know, just an interesting try, I mean, and we're basing this on, you know, salary data of over about 23,000 salaries. So a good, a good sample size to certainly be able to see what's happening in the market. I think things will kind of continue to evolve. You probably will see a little bit of a uptick in salaries because of inflation. I mean, as you mentioned, you know, things are, are going up and, you know, even before the call, you and I were talking about, you know, kind of some of the, the differences that you might see and, and one geography versus another. But I think that's why it's good for talent to, again, just be aware of what are the going salary ranges for different roles that they find interesting. And for someone with their experience, their, you know, level of expertise, et cetera, et cetera, I think it's good to just, you know, you wanna keep your finger on the pulse of what's happening.

Joey Korenman: (39:15)

Yeah. So I, I, again will urge everybody listening to go download the salary guide. It is very interesting. And I'm looking at the page you're talking about right now, Carol, and almost every job description, uh, had an increase between 20, 20 and 2021. But the ones that had the highest increases were really interesting. And they, we make a lot of sense in the context of things going remote advertising budgets, having to shift around because live shoots, weren't a thing for a while. And advertising in general had to shift the two roles that had the biggest increases are digital marketing specialists. And the one that had the highest increase 17% year over year with social media manager. Yeah. Which I think is fascinating. And I've got some theories, but what, like, why do you think that those two roles had such an increase?

Carole Neal: (40:05)

Oh, I can give you some fun facts. So for many companies, you know, you, people may hear about digital transformation all the time, like business buzzword, right. But many C didn't really have truly an online e-commerce presence, pre pandemic. I mean, a lot of companies did, but there were a lot of companies that, that didn't suddenly you have the pandemic where people are at home, the only way they can interact with you is online. So many companies literally had to Excel a rate, their online presence and their online strategy. Like some companies said, this is something that has been taking us. We've been trying to figure this out for a year and a half or two years. We did in two months, what we've been trying to do in two years. Right. They just had to move so fast because no one was going in the store.

Carole Neal: (40:56)

Right. Brick and mortar was quote, quote dead. So that makes sense that the rules where you see that large increase is things that are online, right? So digital marketing specialists, that's someone who is looking at your website, you know, looking at your email strategy, you know, depending on the role, different companies describe it differently. But typically it's all those online channels, right? Email websites, social media, et cetera, social media manager. What were people doing all day when you were at home on Instagram, on Facebook, right? Yep. All those kinds of things. Right? All the, literally all the different, you know, TikTok, right. TikTok prior to COVID was a platform that was kind of chugging along and growing, but it had explosive growth during COVID cuz everybody's on TikTok doing videos. And so suddenly a way of communicating a way of commerce, you know, a way of engaging with your audience, cuz you can't do in person is now, you know, became the primary communication channel during COVID and still is still a primary one.

Carole Neal: (42:05)

You know, concerts are just starting to come back. But think about how many online events there were that you, you know, you could still participate. Companies and organizations had to pivot very quickly museums. Remember, I don't know if you remember, but like a lot of the museums, like in the Smithsonian and all that kind of stuff in DC, as well as a lot of the museums in New York suddenly now had like virtual museum tours, you know what I mean? All these things to, how do you still stay engaged and your audience? And so it completely makes sense that those roles are the ones that have seen the most explosive growth because they're in demand in demand.

Joey Korenman: (42:43)

Yeah. I think that, that it's a good place to look if you're, you know, a designer, an animator and you're looking to kind of up your worth, you know, even if you don't want to be a social media, a manager, just having a better grasp of the way social media marketing works and how to really do it effectively and, and use your skills effectively on social media. It, it, it really does raise your stock in the rate.

Carole Neal: (43:06)

And we just build on that for one second and give it a live example. Right? So when you think about social media and video videos that are under 90 seconds are the ones that tend anywhere from 30 to 90 seconds, tend to perform the best and are the ones that you can very easily post on all the platforms. So if you're a video editor, you need to understand that because you have to know how to very clearly and quickly communicate your story. A 32nd story versus a 92nd versus a five minute story. Right? You don't have a lot of time to really quickly communicate. So just understanding how social media works, the different platforms, what resonates, how are they counting views and all that kind of stuff will help you edit videos better because you'll know what the audience is looking for.

Joey Korenman: (43:54)

Yes. Yeah. I, I had a, um, one of my friends who runs a, a studio in Boston, I had her on the podcast last year and she was talking about how, as someone, you know, running a studio that produces videos, what's been really helpful and kind of helped them stand out is that they understand sales funnels. Right, right. Like they understand the way that digital marketing is struck. And so what they produce actually solves a problem inside of a sales funnel versus what a lot of production companies do, which I, I already talked about earlier is like making a beautiful thing that can make you feel the emotion, but like, does it solve the business problem? Right. There's always a business problem attached to these things.

Carole Neal: (44:33)

Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Joey Korenman: (44:36)

So let's talk about some actual salaries and I've got some numbers here and I want, I'm hoping you can kind of help everybody understand why these there's such a big range in what someone can earn for the same role. So, and by the way, I, I want to call it how cool it is that you can look up in the salary guide, all of these different jobs and the salary ranges. And you can look up based on geographic location. And even if you're not in the us, it it's probably possible for you to, to figure out like, okay, if you live in London, that's gonna be correlated probably more with San Francisco, right. Then Tampa, Florida. Right. But if you live of, you know, like, like in the countryside in the UK, well, okay, well then you can probably look at something that's a little more in the Midwest right.

Joey Korenman: (45:17)

In the us. So you can sort of have a little bit of a correlation there, but I looked at the salary for video editor and in San Francisco, the range, the low was 65,000 a year. And the high was 125,000 a year. And in Orlando, which is about an hour and a half for me, 50,000 to 75,000. So that's a huge discrepancy. Right. And obviously the cost of living between those two cities could not be more different. Right. So that, I think that's the obvious reason. Uh, that's one of the obvious reasons. Right. But I'm curious if there's other, like what drives the high end of the salary range to have such a wide discrepancy between cities?

Carole Neal: (45:59)

Yeah. I think cost of living is a big part of it. Right. If we were gonna be statistics geek. Cause I would say that it probably accounts for, you know, probably almost 80% of it. I mean, just look at, I literally just did like a little research, like super fast, right before the, but like San Francisco, a one bedroom apartment was close to $3,000 and in Orlando it was 1500. So you know what I mean? Just a significant cost of living difference. Uh, so I think that's a big part of it. I think, you know, other factors could just simply be like what company people are working with. I mean, again, we base this off of about 23,000 salaries, but in no way, are we trying to, are the sample sizes always the same for every single job? You know what I mean? So we could have had, and if you look in the salary guide, it'll tell you how many people were in each sample size, you know?

Carole Neal: (46:52)

So we could just have, have someone that, you know, got some big bucks, you know what I mean, in San Francisco. Um, and that could be, you know, potentially a little bit of a, of anomaly, but I think what is helpful for people to look at is, you know, the section where it shows like the year over year, because that's really based off of, of more of a, a median or, you know, across the, the us. And so I think that's probably, you know, a more fair comparison if you're trying to figure out where you are and then one other plug I wanna make. And, and Joey, I'll make sure that I get this to you is we actually do have a salary guide for the UK. Ooh. And we also have one for Australia, so I'll make sure you have the links to those and for Germany, I think.

Joey Korenman: (47:38)

Oh, perfect. We'll add those to the show notes. Thank you. That's

Carole Neal: (47:40)

Excellent. Yeah. So we can, I'll certainly make sure you have that information.

Joey Korenman: (47:45)

Yeah. I think I, another thing that I thought of while you were, while you were talking to you is that, you know, the, the title video editor, it can mean a million different things. So if you're in Orlando, for example, and you're working for like a small local agency working with local brands and restaurants and whatever, doing social media videos, it's a very different job than if you're out at a big post house in Los Angeles, working with, you know, like on national super bowl commercials with clients in the room and you have to right. Manage that and be editing and, and then coordinating with like film transfer and all these things. And, and so I think also just like the level that you're working at is a huge differentiator and still a lot of the creative, you know, the biggest stuff still tends to happen on the west coast and, and in New York, at least in, in my little corner of the industry. Right. And I'm curious, maybe you can talk about like, overall, right? Because you're, you're helping staff, not just, you know, for design roles and video editors, but also for marketing managers and social media managers and product designers. Have you seen like the hubs of these industries shift at all because things are going remote or are they still sort of bicoastal?

Carole Neal: (49:00)

That's interesting. I think they're still primarily bicoastal, but I do think you are starting to see some shifts. I mean, certainly Austin is, you know, kind of starting to become a little mini Silicon valley. You know, you, you're starting to see a lot of, uh,

Joey Korenman: (49:18)

Miami too. I hear. Yeah,

Carole Neal: (49:19)

Exactly. So I do think that there's some shift. I do think again, because of COVID more companies have realized the importance of having that strategy. So I think that in and of itself makes those roles more dispersed across the, the us, you know, cause you just have more companies that are like, Hmm, I do need someone that manage my social and you know what, because it's, this person is just managing my social. They don't actually need to be here. Right. So maybe I do have someone, you know, maybe there's someone who's like really great at social media in Minneapolis and they can manage it for, you know, my organization that's in, you know, Maryland. So I, I just think you, you start to see, you know, some of those roles just be a little bit more dispersed across the us.

Joey Korenman: (50:06)

Right. Let's also talk about the difference in salaries between different roles. Even if those as roles from the perspective of the artist require basically the same skills. Right. And basically the same difficulty level. Right. So, right. Uh, the example I picked was graphic designer versus UX designer. Now I know there are different jobs. I know there's different skill sets, different software that's used and things like that, but in the end you're designing. Right. And, uh, I've done both and the skillset is it's different, but it's similar enough where, you know, I, I couldn't imagine that one should pay, you know, twice as much as the other one, however, seems like that's kind of the case. Um, so the range for graphic designer in San Francisco was 52,000 to 96,000. The range for UX designers, 85,000 to 165,000. Now why does, you know, like to, to a designer listening to this, you know, you can probably, you probably, I know what the difference is between graphic design and UX design to some level. I can't imagine that the difference is, you know, $70,000 of, of skill. So what, what do you think Carol drives the difference in compensation just between those two roles?

Carole Neal: (51:23)

I think it's the value that companies are placing on that skillset, right? You said they're similar but different, but with a UX designer, you know what I mean? What you're really asking that person to do is think about what is my customer's journey as they go through my website or, you know, my content, whatever that might be. And again, going back to, we are so online. So digital now is even more so post COVID. I think there it's a value, you know, placed on that. And it's, it's kinda like, you know, you have two houses and one is near the beach and one isn't, you know, but yet the one near the beach is $2 million. And the one that isn't is $500,000 and they're the same exact house. What's the difference? Well, the value that people place on the proximity of being near the beach. And so I, I think it really comes down to that and I'm honestly just gonna make a shameless plug. One of the things that Aquent has is we have a platform called gymnasium that is free online training. We will train you for free how to do UX design. So if you are that graphic designer and you're like, well, shoot, I could be a UX designer. I know most about stuff. Go ahead take these courses they're free. You can get a certificate and then boom. You're now in the 85 K range.

Joey Korenman: (52:40)

Oh, I love it. That's excellent. Yeah, you guys are full service. That's amazing. Yeah.

Carole Neal: (52:46)

But I think it's just value that's placed on that skill, you know, particularly as the, as the business and the world is more online, more digital, et cetera. It's the value.

Joey Korenman: (52:57)

Yeah. And I think that's something that it really doesn't become clear until you are maybe hiring or you're running your own business. That, and I can just use an example for School of Motion, right? Like if I I'm hiring a good designer to make me a thumbnail for a YouTube video, that's valuable. Right. But not that valuable if the thumbnail's good enough and maybe we get a few less views, it's not a huge deal, but if our website sucks right, then that's a, that's a huge deal. So yeah, it's worth more to me to have a good website. That's what I'm paying for. I'm not paying for a pretty website. I'm paying, I'm paying for one that, that works right. That converts. And, you know, for these companies that are building apps and that's how they're Mo that's how they're driving revenue, you know, is by increasing conversion and increasing time on app and stuff like that. The UX design is everything for, you know, and it, there's a direct line between good UX and revenue where it's a little bit harder with graphic design. I think. So that, that was kind of my gut too. I think you confirmed it.

Carole Neal: (54:00)

And I think like for the company, right, you're kind of getting the two for one, so to speak, I'm getting someone that has an eye for the graphics, but can also, you know what I mean, like can help me with conversions, which is ultimately what I'm trying to do. Help people stay longer on my page. And again, as we look at our digital world that it's just, it's everything

Joey Korenman: (54:21)

Now, to me, what I, what I assume, and you can tell me if this is right or wrong, I assume that supply and demand is also a huge driver of salary. And so graphic design has been a job title you could have for a very long time, but UX designer, you, I don't know, maybe 15 years old, 20 years old tops. So, you know, maybe there's just like less of a supply of them too. So maybe you could talk a little bit about how the supply of talent can drive up the cost of it.

Carole Neal: (54:50)

Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think that's true. And I think our, our high school and college economics teachers would be so happy that we bought in supply and demand. But I do think that is it. I think that, you know, certainly UX user experience, user interaction, customer experience, those are roles that are really, really in demand. And we did a report at the beginning of 2020. And one of the things that we saw is that companies that were experiencing a lot of growth, they felt and treated UX customer experience just as important as like their brand reputation. And so there was a heavy focus on that. So, I mean, UX designers, people with that skillset, UX CX really, you know, kind of like the world show oyster a little bit right now in terms of, you know, being able to find opportu these, I, I think a lot of them are even what we call passive talent, which means you're not actually looking for a role roles, tend to come to you.

Carole Neal: (55:56)

Right, right. People are blowing up your LinkedIn blowing up your phone going, Hey, I got this great gig. Are you interested? You're not even really having to go on the boards and posts for jobs and all that other kind of stuff. So again, I think it's kind of a, you know, Wayne gret, you know, he used to say, he tries to look at and think about where the puck is going. If you look at where it's going, it is more towards an online environment. And so if you don't have those skill sets, you know, learning, getting some familiarity with it, or even some level of expertise with it is only gonna help you because that's certainly where the future is. In particular, as you talk about the metaverse and stuff like that, you know, that's 100% UX UI customer experience.

Joey Korenman: (56:43)

I mean, it's interesting. We, we teach a lot of, uh, 3d courses too at School of Motion. And, you know, there's kind of this revolution happening in the world of 3d, where we're going from, you know, sort of setting up your 3d scene and then having to hit, render and wait several hours to, to get the result. Versus when you're talking about VR and the metaverse all of that's real time and the tools are different, you know, if, if anyone's listening and they're trying to figure out where the puck's gonna be, I think that's where I'd put my money. I'd say real time 3d. Yeah. And also, you know, UX plus, uh, layer on some animation skills. And I could tell you, Google cannot hire people like that fast enough right now.

Carole Neal: (57:22)

And I think for people again, who have the ability to say, not only do I have these skills, but I'm able to tell a story, right? You don't have to sit here and tell me every little element of the story I can contribute to the story. I can help build the story scripted. You know, I can see, I can visualize and see where this is. I, I think that again, kind of gives you your, your unicorn status.

Joey Korenman: (57:47)

Love it. Unicorn status. That's what we're all after, isn't it?

Carole Neal: (57:50)

Yeah, exactly.

Joey Korenman: (57:52)

Love it. Okay. So in, in the salary guide, you post low, mid and high ranges for all of these positions, which is super helpful. And I'm sure everyone who looks at it is wondering what can I do to be on the end of the salary range? So what are the things that companies look for to pay you that top dollar?

Carole Neal: (58:10)

I think it is having a desirable skillset. I think it is being able to, when I say, be able to produce, I mean, you know, me being able to do what you say you're going to do right. As do

Joey Korenman: (58:25)

Yes. I call

Carole Neal: (58:26)

That a doer. Yeah, exactly. Be a doer. And I think it is being open to new opportunities. Right. And being willing to step outside your comfort zone. And so that might mean something like managing a team, taking on a project, you know, having to travel or do some things like that. And you know, that's not for everyone. Right. We certainly recognize and hold space for everybody. Like all different types of personalities. Some people are like, Hey, look, I just wanna do my art. Like leave me alone. Like, that's all I wanna do. But if you're getting into those higher salaries, you're typical in those salary ranges because it has a wider scope of what you're doing. And so just think of it as, you know, when you're buying, you know, an iPhone and you're buying the iPhone SE that only, you know what I mean, does X, Y, and Z, and then you're buying the high end iPhone that has facial recognition and whatever communicates with, you know what I mean?

Carole Neal: (59:30)

Exactly. The more you go up in terms of feature of functionality, the more it costs. And so I think it's kind of that same kind of thing, right? As you are thinking about what your career strategy is, what am I doing that is increasing my value, whether it's my skillset, whether it's, you know, my ability to think strategically understand the business, et cetera. And then again, I encourage you to look at well, what is, you know, kind of like the general range for this position, right? Because what, what it may be is that you might need to negotiate and ask for more than you're currently being paid. Maybe, you know, maybe they said, oh, how about 65? And you said, oh, okay, great. And then you look and you're like, wait a minute, the lowest 75, like right. You know, I need to ask for more. And, you know, obviously that's a whole different discussion about negotiation and, you know, value and all those other kind of good things. But, you know, I think as you get to the higher end, it is typically because it's more scope, more responsibility, you know, this person has more tools in their toolkit, so to speak.

Joey Korenman: (01:00:38)

Yeah. And, and I love that you pointed out, I mean, really, cuz I would agree with this too. The, uh, I'm willing to pay much more for someone that I can say, Hey, I need this and I need it in two weeks and then I can just like, never talk about it again. And it just shows up done right. Versus someone where okay. They have to be managed and you know, I gotta double check, oh wait. Oh, it's late. Okay. But you didn't tell me that. Right. So now, you know, like that, that kind of thing that I would expect that when someone's starting out in their career and their junior and they don't really know how, you know, the pace of professional work can, can, can be and, and how to speak up and advocate for themselves if they need more time. And so I think those are all like the soft skills that, you know, that, that creatives need to work on. That's the stuff that's not taught in arts school. You know, that, that actually is probably more valuable over the long term than, you know, being slightly better of a designer.

Carole Neal: (01:01:28)

Well, and you go back to your comment earlier, right. About relationships. One of my friends, she literally has her PhD in like creativity and innovation, but she calls us the power skills versus the soft skills kind of like the power skills, you know, what are you not, not in a, oh, I'm gonna roll the earth kind of vibe. But you know, just more of like, those are the things though that help you, they do help you leapfrog to the next level.

Joey Korenman: (01:01:55)

Yeah. That's so true. So I guess the last thing I wanna ask you about is, you know, I, I, I kind of wanna leave everyone listening with some bread crumbs that they can follow because you know, as, as artists, we're all sort of navigating this career that doesn't have quite as neat of a road to follow as other careers. Right. And, and uh, you know, it involves a lot of just sort of trying stuff and figuring stuff out, you know, but I, I always think that I, I guess we can go back to the, uh, the Wayne Gretzky metaphor. Yeah. Right. What Ising in terms of the areas that it's hardest to find talent in, because I think that, you know, our primary audience for this podcast are people who would probably say I'm a motion designer, right. So they can design, they can animate, they put both together, they make beautiful stuff and that's tool set can be applied in the world of UX in the world of video editing in the world of social media, um, and a million other places. So if someone's thinking, okay, I have this core set of skills, but I want to upgrade. I want to be more desirable and I want to be where the puck's gonna be. What are you seeing? What would you recommend to them?

Carole Neal: (01:03:03)

I would say that we see a lot of requests. Like, you know, oftentimes like when a client comes to us, it's because they've already tried to fill the role and they've had a hard time filling it. Right. So some of the challenges, um, some of the roles that they are finding challenging to fill, are you CX you know, or customer experience UI, those are the ones now I think to me, it's like very interesting if someone has that skillset of being a motion designer or video animator, because to then be able to say, I can design create video. And I also understand the UX of it, you know? So I've designed this video so that, you know, honestly what you want the customer to do, or the call to action is actually at the beginning. So it pops, they get it from the, you know what I mean?

Carole Neal: (01:03:54)

They get it. I say it to 'em once in the beginning, so they get it, but I also then pepper it throughout the video and give it to them at the end, whatever it might. Like. I think that's really, again, what kind of starts to give you that unicorn status, you know, and so check out gymnasium, check out, you know, LinkedIn has a series of courses. There's always Udemy, Coursera, you know, all these different resources to get courses in UX CX. I, I think to have some familiarity with that only makes you more marketable and, and is really, probably one of the best investments of your time that, that you can make,

Joey Korenman: (01:04:34)

Make sure you check out the show notes for this episode so that you can download the salary guide most appropriate for where you live and check out equal. They're a huge company trying to solve a huge problem, and maybe you can help them and they can help you, which would be amazing. I want to thank Carol so much for her time and for sharing her knowledge with us. I know I learned a ton and I hope you did too. And with that we part until next time.